Curse

daze · Dec 22, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Right, 8 skills beat 3 skills

I really lilke earth magic. it's awesome, your build is great and offers great utility. It's really good for HM play. But it is not a damage build. That's what I was saying: Elementalists are no good as main DD, they are really good at providing utility while dishing out medium damage.

As for for 1st build: I really don't need to dig up some Mesmer AP build, do I? All caster-classes can do well with AP, the Elementalist is of cause ne exception there. Replace the fire spells with Mesmer direct damage and you will get more DPS, both NM and HM.

Oh and CoP-Mesmers are not good at DPS. CoP only offers like 8 DPS on its own. It still is a nice skill to bring but the bulk of damage comes from [[Wandering Eye] and [[Clumsiness] in my example above since they both have a shorter cooldown which can be greatly reduced with a 40/40-set.
Yes, the damage is conditional. But enemies in PvE always attack, even the casters. It always triggers (well, 95% of the time). The fact that it prodects the group in addition to the damage far outweights the small chance some monster might not auto-attack.

ok then pound for pound [savannah [email protected]][teinais [email protected]][searing [email protected]] > [wandering eye][clumsiness][cry of pain] And im still only talking about in Normal Mode at this point.

Improvavel · Dec 22, 2008, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Anyone that adds [[Intensity] over [[Ebon battle standard of honor] should be shot to pieces.

Eles are good in hm, but not as main damage dealers. A party built to abuse physical characters will do more damage while being more heavily armored.

Necromancers have [[Feast of corruption], [[Desecrate enchantments] and [[Defile enchantments] as powerful AoE damage skills too.

More important, what fire eles lack in hm, is the ability to take out a single problematic target FAST.

bungusmaximus · Dec 22, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

More important, what fire eles lack in hm, is the ability to take out a single problematic target FAST.

Quoted for epic truth, like that pesky hammer warrior that's tearing apart your backline. Dead eles do no damage no matter what the statistics say.

Tyla · Dec 22, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Or you can bring a non-sucky Nuker and bring HAMMER OF DAWN!

MegaVolti · Dec 22, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

ok then pound for pound [savannah [email protected]][teinais [email protected]][searing [email protected]] > [wandering eye][clumsiness][cry of pain] And im still only talking about in Normal Mode at this point.

[[Savannah Heat] is one of the most overrated elites ever. Even in NM, enemies will just run out of it within 2-3 seconds, so it does actually less damage then the other skills listed there.

Armor is over 60 in NM since monsters have lvl24 very often. Soft targets will have around 70 armor then, hard ones up to 110 against elemental damage.
So your AoE DPS spells that list 44 DPS will actually only do like 30 DPS. They both have a 30 second cooldown and a 5 second duration, so even if enemies would stay in the AoE for the full duration (which they will not!), the spell can only be in effect 1/6 of the time. Meaning you will have effective 20 DPS or something like that in the long run.

Which proves my point: Elementalists as DD are bad. Elementalists utility is awesome. Go for utility, not for DPS.

[Unsteady Ground][Eruption][Churning Earth]
[Savannah Heat][teinai's heat][searing heat]

Comparable damage (meaning: medium and far from good damage), which bar would you prefer?

Fire just can't compare to earth. Earth spells do the same amount of damage as fire and add utility on top of that.
The only exception here is [[Searing Flames], which does more damage when used by several Elementalists in a team. But it still is (as shown previously) still worse then what other classes can do for damage.

Long story short: Fire sucks. Earth rocks. Get over it.

Xenomortis · Dec 22, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

In fact, other than CoP builds, who else can dish out as much AoE damage? Or what other professions as a whole are built towards applying tons of Area of Effect?

[Mark of Pain] + a MM?
Necromancers may not have originally been designed with it in mind, but two necros can deal just as much damage as a pair of any other profession.

Fire magic works, even in HM. If it didn't work, people wouldn't bother running it.
It's just that Earth Magic works better.

Marverick · Dec 22, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

[[Savannah Heat] is one of the most overrated elites ever. Even in NM, enemies will just run out of it within 2-3 seconds, so it does actually less damage then the other skills listed there.

Armor is over 60 in NM since monsters have lvl24 very often. Soft targets will have around 70 armor then, hard ones up to 110 against elemental damage.
So your AoE DPS spells that list 44 DPS will actually only do like 30 DPS. They both have a 30 second cooldown and a 5 second duration, so even if enemies would stay in the AoE for the full duration (which they will not!), the spell can only be in effect 1/6 of the time. Meaning you will have effective 20 DPS or something like that in the long run.

Which proves my point: Elementalists as DD are bad. Elementalists utility is awesome. Go for utility, not for DPS.

[Unsteady Ground][Eruption][Churning Earth]
[Savannah Heat][teinai's heat][searing heat]

Comparable damage (meaning: medium and far from good damage), which bar would you prefer?

Fire just can't compare to earth. Earth spells do the same amount of damage as fire and add utility on top of that.
The only exception here is [[Searing Flames], which does more damage when used by several Elementalists in a team. But it still is (as shown previously) still worse then what other classes can do for damage.

Long story short: Fire sucks. Earth rocks. Get over it.

[Mind Blast] says hi.

MegaVolti · Dec 23, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

[Mind Blast] says hi.

[Ether Renewal] waves

cataphract · Dec 23, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

They both have a 30 second cooldown and a 5 second duration, so even if enemies would stay in the AoE for the full duration (which they will not!), the spell can only be in effect 1/6 of the time. Meaning you will have effective 20 DPS or something like that in the long run.

NM enemies will stay in AoE, HM ones will stay for a fair amount of time. Minions are there to keep them busy. Also, water snares. On top of that, while they're running out of AoE they're not beating on you. Your minions and casters are beating on them. gg

Duration and cooldowns are not a big issue here since almost every engagement lasts about 30 seconds.

Improvavel · Dec 23, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

NM enemies will stay in AoE,

Prophecies dudes still act weird. Even in NM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Fire magic works, even in HM. If it didn't work, people wouldn't bother running it.
It's just that Earth Magic works better.

Sure... Or maybe it's the consets working...

MegaVolti · Dec 23, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

NM enemies will stay in AoE, HM ones will stay for a fair amount of time. Minions are there to keep them busy. Also, water snares. On top of that, while they're running out of AoE they're not beating on you. Your minions and casters are beating on them. gg

Duration and cooldowns are not a big issue here since almost every engagement lasts about 30 seconds.

No, even in NM they WILL run out. They will run out faster in HM, that doesn't mean they stay in the AoE forever in NM.
From my experience its about 3s of AoE in NM and about 2s in HM.

Well, if an engagements lasts 30 seconds then you will be out of spells and not doing any damage the last 20 seconds. Which certainly isn't good for DPS

-Lotus- · Dec 23, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Fire magic works, even in HM. If it didn't work, people wouldn't bother running it.

no, it really doesn't. people are just rediculously stupid. they run shit because it works in other gams they have played, not guild wars.

people still run tanks and Mshower nukers. don't tell me you think those "work" to.

Desert Rose · Dec 23, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Work != Good
If fire magic wouldn't "work" in HM all GW-forums would be overflow with QQ-Threads about how useless Eles are in HM.

gunster · Dec 23, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

NM: Eles=dmg, Necros=util
HM: Necros=dmg, Eles=util.

I think the above statement sums up the discussion ^

MegaVolti · Dec 23, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Work != Good
If fire magic wouldn't "work" in HM all GW-forums would be overflow with QQ-Threads about how useless Eles are in HM.

And this topic is ... ?
Well, everything "works" in HM. Even auto-attacking warriors will somehow get the job done ... it just takes a few hours. So yes, fire magic "works". It still is far inferior to most other sources of damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunster

NM: Eles=dmg, Necros=util
HM: Necros=dmg, Eles=util.

I think the above statement sums up the discussion ^

Not really. More like:
NM Elementalist damage without [[Searing Flames]: Bad.
NM Elementalist damage with several Eles running [[Searing Flames]: Fine but far from being the best in the game.
HM Elementalist damage without [[Searing Flames]: Very Bad.
HM Elementalist damage with several Eles running [[Searing Flames]: Bad.

Necro or Mesmer damage: Always good, no matter if NM or HM.

Best thing to do anyway: Get a physical team and buff it with [[Order of Pain], [[Dark Fury], [[Barbs], [[Ebon Battle standard of honor], [[asuran scan] and [[mark of pain].

daze · Dec 24, 2008, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Work != Good
If fire magic wouldn't "work" in HM all GW-forums would be overflow with QQ-Threads about how useless Eles are in HM.

lol. is this /sarcasm??
I wish you could search QQ Fire magic or QQ eles. You would probably get back a few hundered posts at the very least all QQ posts about how its not fair that fire magic doesnt work in HM.

Mouse at Large · Dec 24, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Just out of interest, has anyone actually tried running twin heats + MB and PvE/utility in HM in conjunction with a sabs style team????

I have whilst completing both Legendary Vanquisher and Guardian. With very few exceptions e.g. Destroyer heavy areas, it works fine. I suggest some of you read Cataphract's posts and absorb what's being said rather than dismissing fire builds in HM because they don't conform to the "orthodox" view of skill selection.

In any case, give me a competent fire ele who knows what to do in terms of target switching/priorotisation and group survival dynamics than any number of "Guru/Wiki says it's good so it must be......." players who have no idea of what to do other than to fire off the whole bar and run around waiting for regen.

Oh, and Merry Xmas to all

Tyla · Dec 24, 2008, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

target switching/priorotisation and group survival dynamics

That needs competence with AoE? Hey look, a clumped up team *12345678214324563452354*. I think you get my point. Target switching is rarely important in PvE, prioritisation is only important for mobs which have a shit ton of defense or offense that's pretty much balanced, otherwise you just follow the same old shit.

Oh, and uh... Splinter Weapon basically outclasses most, if not all AoE damage that an Elementalist can output. Without multi-target attacks. In a single skill. Even wanding.

Mouse at Large · Dec 24, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That needs competence with AoE? Hey look, a clumped up team *12345678214324563452354*. I think you get my point. Target switching is rarely important in PvE, prioritisation is only important for mobs which have a shit ton of defense or offense that's pretty much balanced, otherwise you just follow the same old shit.

<snip>

Switching - like for instance, targeting AoE spells on different enemies so the effects hit the widest possible number of targets. Perhaps dropping an AoE on that pesky melee that's broken through to your backline and is harassing your healer(s).

Prioritisation - selecting an initial target such as a monk or whatever so your initial engagement is as effective as possible.

I'm sure a player of your obvious experience was simply being disingenuous with the above comments, however, if not, then my advice would be to simply ignore the trite button-mashing statement.

Tyla · Dec 24, 2008, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Widest possible number of targets? As long as you aren't in an area where you can't see f*ck all, I do believe it is evident where your enemies are. If it's "dropping an AoE for your Monks", you're really wanting to go Earth and not fire, because it does that job more efficiently.

Again, prioritisation is absolutely simply in PvE. Go for the Monk, or for Monkless mobs go for the hardest hitting enemies. Or in the case of a Nuker, go for the biggest clumps then headbutt your keyboard.

I hope you don't think Fire Magic takes skill though. I seriously do.